Curse

Warrior Babes · Aug 08, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

like it takes skill to go trough an area (no tank and spank) these days.. lol

Also Sabway and Discord should be nerfed.. way to easy.. why not remove heroes from the game.. hmm, no challenge anymore, and those PvE skill, damn
why not remove all classes except the once from Prophecies

Srsly, the game has changed, live with it

and go pvp if u want challenge

~ Babes

JONO51 · Aug 08, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

SF isn't used to "play" an area.
It's used to "farm" an area.
I don't want "players" in my "farming" team.

So what can the players do then, the ones that want to play it and not farm 24/7? At the moment, the only viable option for them outside of trying to find a decent guild/friends is to join a farming group, so a whole group of players is closed off from the elite areas as they don't want to farm, just play them.

Isn't essentially the same thing the farmers seem to hate when the better players start talking about making elite area's in HM for elite players? Nobody really wants an area to be closed of to swathes of people, but thats pretty much what SF has done.

Tyla · Aug 08, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

Srsly, the game has changed, live with it

If the game has changed, can't it change again? Using your logic, it's insanely contradicting to say "it's changed, live with it", especially when people can talk to the designers and say "I don't like this, can we have it modified in some way?"

Quote:

and go pvp if u want challenge

Yes, because to get into a challenging level of PvP without having PuGs collapse on you over and over is oh so easy compared to getting into PvE. You can get a guild, but the same applies as to PvE - PuGs are shit, and it's hard to find a decent guild.

upier · Aug 08, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

So what can the players do then, the ones that want to play it and not farm 24/7? At the moment, the only viable option for them outside of trying to find a decent guild/friends is to join a farming group, so a whole group of players is closed off from the elite areas as they don't want to farm, just play them.

Isn't essentially the same thing the farmers seem to hate when the better players start talking about making elite area's in HM for elite players? Nobody really wants an area to be closed of to swathes of people, but thats pretty much what SF has done.

The players that are now farming, won't move onto "playing" the areas.
They'll either come up with a new cookie to farm them or won't do them. Which means a non-farming player will still be limited to the same options he has now.

The big problem really is that given the age of the game, you have very few, if not none, players that actually play the game.
But that's not the problem of SF.
Like I mentioned previously - that's the problem of the goals in this game. Once you get past the basic goals of completing the missions, 1k armour sets, collectors weapons, all you are left with is massive farming.
Be it either for money for FoW/Tormy/pets or VQing (I consider that to be a farming title! There is just no good reason to kill every foe in a map!)/other titles.

If this would be fixed - we could get rid of the most moronic additions to the game. But as long as these are in the game - I'd rather have a stupid little counter such as SF in the game also.
SF doesn't break a fine game. It just trashes an already broken game a BIT more while providing something decent in return.
And I currently feel that the good outweighs the bad.

Warrior Babes · Aug 08, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If the game has changed, can't it change again? Using your logic, it's insanely contradicting to say "it's changed, live with it", especially when people can talk to the designers and say "I don't like this, can we have it modified in some way?"

ye.. i can live with changes..
Nerf SF, i dont care, but nothing will change.. there will just be some other ''teambuild'' for doing UW/FoW/Dungeons/DoA.. and so on, and then some ppl will start QQ'ing about another skill, and so on, untill ppl will say Flare is OP

i dont say SF isnt OP, but if u wanna play to game witout SF, go ahead, there are.. 400+(not sure lol) more skills?

MMSDome · Aug 08, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Snow Bunny's above comment illustrates what I've been saying all along: you seem to think that SF is "invincibility" when it's far from it. Please, try using the builds in areas aside from UW or FoW, or try to just run in and tank in areas such as FoW, the Crystal Desert, etc. It won't work. It's not INVINCIBILITY.

If his post illustrated what you have been saying along you do think it is invincibility. Can you read?

Most zones it works and yes there are few where it doesn't so yes it doesn't work everywhere but it does in most places. Stop trying to use a bad argument by saying you aren't invincible since it doesn't work in 100% of the game.

Learn to admit when you are wrong.

Tyla · Aug 08, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

Nerf SF, i dont care, but nothing will change.. there will just be some other ''teambuild'' for doing UW/FoW/Dungeons/DoA.. and so on, and then some ppl will start QQ'ing about another skill, and so on, untill ppl will say Flare is OP

Although that is not the point. The point is that in terms of defensive power, this skill is stupidly powerful. Sure, there will be a dominant build all of the time, but this one is just greedy.

Quote:

i dont say SF isnt OP, but if u wanna play to game witout SF, go ahead, there are.. 400+(not sure lol) more skills?

I don't even play anymore. Either way, you realise that just ignoring something that affects the game itself is pretty impossible right?

upier · Aug 08, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I don't even play anymore. Either way, you realise that just ignoring something that affects the game itself is pretty impossible right?

If you are "playing" PvE - ignoring it is ABSOLUTELY possible.
Just don't bring it into your instance.

If on the other hand you are "farming" PvE - then you are right.
You can not disregard the best option.

Targren · Aug 08, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The point is that in terms of defensive power, this skill is stupidly powerful.

And in terms of offensive power, it's pathetic. What's your point again?

Quote:

I don't even play anymore. Either way, you realise that just ignoring something that affects the game itself is pretty impossible right?

Except it doesn't affect the game itself. It affects the whiny minority from being able to jump into PUGs because they don't want to leave their non-playing "social" guilds and don't have any other friends to play with, generally because they're too busy whining.

A11Eur0 · Aug 08, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

If his post illustrated what you have been saying along you do think it is invincibility. Can you read?

Most zones it works and yes there are few where it doesn't so yes it doesn't work everywhere but it does in most places. Stop trying to use a bad argument by saying you aren't invincible since it doesn't work in 100% of the game.

Learn to admit when you are wrong.

It illustrates that people think it's invincibility, and I've been saying all along that people are thinking it's invincibility. Can YOU read?

It doesn't work in most places. In the places it DOES work it's not 100% invincible. Only about 10-15% of the game actually allows you to run around and aggro everything without worry, everywhere else has pbaoe, enchant removal, signets, touch skills, etc. which bypass it. Is it that hard to understand?

I will admit when I'm wrong, but this is not one of those times.

squiros · Aug 09, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

so it only affects others if the economy dives, elitist or not. so if they made all the dropped items only useable by that account, it'd be okay, right? then the 'does not affect you' argument will hold iff the gold drops are within 1 SD of all dungeons, right?

of course there's the overpowered argument, but i think there are many imba builds that do not require any more or less skill and receive far less criticism. i would go so far as to say that the imbagon is better - since it requires no aggro control at all, allows damage to be done in a convincing way, etc. furthermore, the terra tank with ob flesh is nearly analogous, and is widely accepted. in many cases the terra tank is more robust.

Jczech · Aug 09, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

And in terms of offensive power, it's pathetic. What's your point again?

OMG guys, WoH has absolutely no offensive power! It must be weak!

Dumb arguement is dumb.

Jeydra · Aug 09, 2009, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are "playing" PvE - ignoring it is ABSOLUTELY possible.
Just don't bring it into your instance.

Really? What's the chances of getting a team to do Thommis HM without resorting to Shadow Form?

Life Bringing · Aug 09, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Really? What's the chances of getting a team to do Thommis HM without resorting to Shadow Form?

Dont be terrible and h/h it? Its not that difficult.

Targren · Aug 09, 2009, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jczech

OMG guys, WoH has absolutely no offensive power! It must be weak!

Dumb arguement is dumb.

Yes, yes it is. Yours.

Except you can't compare One skill to One skill, because SF is not maintainable alone. And in case it was not explicit enough for you, SF nerfs the offensive power of EVERY other skill while it's in use. Not to mention the attack shutdown from DP (also required to maintain SF).

If you have objections to the skill and think it needs to be Smiters' Booned, fine. (You're wrong, but it's still your right). But seriously, engage your brain before voicing them.

MMSDome · Aug 09, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

It illustrates that people think it's invincibility, and I've been saying all along that people are thinking it's invincibility. Can YOU read?

It doesn't work in most places. In the places it DOES work it's not 100% invincible. Only about 10-15% of the game actually allows you to run around and aggro everything without worry, everywhere else has pbaoe, enchant removal, signets, touch skills, etc. which bypass it. Is it that hard to understand?

I will admit when I'm wrong, but this is not one of those times.

I hate to burst your bubble but enchant removal spells fail against it due to its invincibility.

10-15% aye? Where did you find these numbers? Chances are your estimate is wrong because in most of the game you can aggro a lot of enemies, you are just wrong.

Regarding the "ignore it" argument that is kind of hard seeing as this skill makes it easier to obtain weapons which would normally be difficult to get from end game chests. This goes for rare materials such as those that drop in elite missions. It is hard to just "ignore" something when it is hurting the prices of weapons that should be more expensive and harder to obtain.

Targren · Aug 09, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Regarding the "ignore it" argument that is kind of hard seeing as this skill makes it easier to obtain weapons which would normally be difficult to get from end game chests. This goes for rare materials such as those that drop in elite missions. It is hard to just "ignore" something when it is hurting the prices of weapons that should be more expensive and harder to obtain.

The exclusivity/e-peen/fake economy argument again.

Considering the odds of the "good" weapons coming from the chest are akin to those of winning the lottery, if UWSC does it in half the time, that's like buying two lottery tickets. Your chances go from 5e-10 to 1e-9[*]. Woo hoo!

[*] Numbers probably inaccurate, used for illustration.

reaper with no name · Aug 09, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

It illustrates that people think it's invincibility, and I've been saying all along that people are thinking it's invincibility. Can YOU read?

It doesn't work in most places. In the places it DOES work it's not 100% invincible. Only about 10-15% of the game actually allows you to run around and aggro everything without worry, everywhere else has pbaoe, enchant removal, signets, touch skills, etc. which bypass it. Is it that hard to understand?

I will admit when I'm wrong, but this is not one of those times.

Question. Why is it that you keep assuming signets and such are instant-death for SF sins? SF doesn't make you any more vulnerable to them than any other character, and they're not instant-death for them, so why is it "OMG, he hit me with a PBAoE! I'm dead!" for SF sins? Oh, and this is all ignoring the fact that you can still be healed just like any other character.

Seriously, one guy in a mob with a touch skill or PBAoE is not going to kill your SF sin. You are going to gank him, then kill everyone else with impunity, and by the time you move onto the next mob, you've healed whatever damage you've taken. It is, for all intents and purposes, invulnerability because no mob in the game can reasonably be expected to be able to kill you. And even if they could, anything able to solo elite areas in 20 minutes is by definition overpowered.

I went a did a quick count (not perfectly accurate, but it's ballpark). There's something like 50 PBAoEs in the game that enemies can use that deal damage. And like 15 signets that can hurt a player, and like 15 touch skills that can hurt a player. So, that's about 80 skills that can hurt you, out of over 1000. Of course, not all of those are offensive, so let's assume for a moment that 1/3 of all skills are offensive in nature. So, less than 1/3 of all skills in the game can even hurt you. But then of course there's attacks. Let's say that for every 1 offensive skill that is used, 2 normal attacks are made (seems fair to me). That means that less than 1/9 of all offensive actions can affect a SF sin at all.

Of course, this is very half-baked and full of assumptions. Plus, it glazes over several important details (like how rare the skills in question are, and the fact that about half of the PBAoEs are from rits and dervs, making them that much more rare). However, it gives you the general idea.

How can something immune to just about everything that can be thrown at it possibly not be overpowered? Seriously, compare it to a 55 monk.

55 monk: Hi there, mob!

Mob: Hi there!

*Fight ensues, monk wins, then monk meets a necro straggler*

55 monk: Hi there, necro monster!

Necro monster: Hi there! I'd like you to meet my friends: health degen, lifestealing, and enchantment-stripping.

55 monk: Oh s***!

*owned*

*Now, the SF sin*

SF sin: Hi there, mob of 100 monsters!

Mob of 100 monsters: Hi there!

*SF sin kills everything without breaking a sweat, then meets a weird necro/derv monster*

SF Sin: Hi there, monster designed specifically to kick my ass!

MDSTKMA: Hi there!

*Fight ensues, monster burns his touch skills and PBAoEs, but since the SF Sin has over 500 hp, he still wins easily*

SF Sin: Wow, that was tough. I bet you a team of 8 guys wouldn't have had as much trouble with this guy. Hah, and they say I'm overpowered!

*SF sin then goes on to kill everything*

This dramatization was brought to you by a cold hard dose of reality.

_Nihilist_ · Aug 09, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Shadow Form needs to be restricted to "nonPerma" status.

Reasons:

1) Shadow Form is not total invulnerability, that still doesn't mean that it should be permanently maintainable, thereby completely nullifying 2 of GW's base game mechanics - Attacking and Targeted Spellcasting.

No other Elite Skill does this. Not a single one. There are Elite skills that have some of the functionality of Shadow Form and can be permanently maintained, but they do not grant immunity from the 2 most prevalent sources of incoming damage at once.

Wiki lists these 3 skills alongside Shadow Form as Action-prevention skills:

Spell Breaker
Vow of Silence
Obsidian Flesh

While they might be maintainable, they don't ignore both attacks and targeted spells, and they all have downsides. OF makes you move much slower, Vow makes you untargetable by ALL spells, even friendly or self, and Spell Breaker only prevents targeted spells, not attacks as well. Shadow Form has 2 downsides, damage output reduction, and losing all but a small fraction of your health when it ends - but since it's able to be maintained indefinitely, the health loss is negated, not to mention there are plenty of ways to deal damage even with the reduction drawback of SF.

2) The ability to be used to clear Elite areas faster than any other viable build.

They are Elite areas for a reason. They aren't supposed to be cleared in < 20 minutes on a regular basis. They aren't Elite to keep people out indefinitely - they are Elite because they require understanding of how things work, better than average teamwork, and are more difficult than other areas of the game. It's how they were designed, it's not a permanent exclusion area.

When Protective Bond 55 Monks began soloing the Underworld, Protective Bond was nerfed so that any time damage was reduced the player maintaining it lost energy. When 55/SS teams began to farm UW with almost the same ease, Dying Nightmares were introduced with deep enchantment removal. What happened when Perma-SF Assassins began to speedclear UW? Yes, SF was hit slightly with the nerf-bat, but it was allowed to continue being permanently maintainable. However, Mindblades were made ranged instead of melee. That did more to hurt OTHER professions trying to go into UW than it did the Perma-SF 'Sins.

3) Rare items used to be rare, now they have significantly reduced value, and the Glob of Ectoplasm (which @ the time I began to hit FoW/UW was ~9.5k/ea), a rare crafting material with no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any given Monster, lost its value (WTB Ecto 4k/ea - every few Trade messages, in pretty much any decently populated area).

The argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars ends HERE. I don't Powertrade or go after rare items, but Perma-SF farmers have made a significant negative impact on this portion of the game. If items and Ecto are worth less, what happens to the players who spent tons of their time playing in Guild or Alliance groups to try and obtain these things that were, by merit of their location in the game, difficult to get? Anyone can obtain rare items, I'm not against that at all. But being able to roll an Assassin to use SF to SC your way to items that are difficult to obtain and were made that way by the game developers? That's abusing game mechanic circumvention.

4) If you aren't running SC, you can't find a PUG.

Again, the argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars gets a nice slap of reality HERE as well. When I started running UW and FoW in 2006, I could find groups that wanted to go, and it didn't take 40 minutes to group. Now, if I want to take my Warrior into UW, I'm pretty much shit out of luck unless I can get my friends together.

It took me and my brother 4 hours the first time we cleared FoW with just the 2 of us and Heroes. Why? Because we slaughtered each and every Monster on the map before we touched a single quest (except for Rastigan's first quest, since he moves up to the Temple as soon as you get within range of it, whether you talk to him or not). Then we took our time with the quests so that we knew how to do them the next time through, in case any of our other friends wanted to clear FoW for their HoM or were wanting Shards, or trying to get Shadow weapons. We tried UW the same way a couple days later, but once we got to Plains, the Mindblades ended our roll. We're still working on a teambuild that will allow us to clear UW on our mains (he's got his Ele, I've got my Warrior), and will allow us to assist our friends should they ever want to do so on their characters. We don't limit it to gimmicks because not everyone can run gimmicks.

I've cleared UW on my Necromancer by running Orders for a Splinter/Barrage group, but I can't get a group to take me on my Warrior because it's not fast enough.

That's fine, be bull-headed. While everyone else is clearing their respective areas, I can take my Warrior and clear Wastes. I can't do the quest, but I can clear the Smites and, if need be, a good portion of the Coldfires in under 20 minutes. At that point, any of the 'Sins could come grab the quest and kill the Terrorwebs, and I'd be more than happy to Sprint my ass out of Wastes before they started killing the Dryders so that I wouldn't loot-steal any Ecto that might drop due to their work.

But no one will accept my offer, not even if I offer to provide the Cons, BU's to the entire party, and pay for the way in/pop my UW Scroll.

Anyone who argues that Perma-Shadow Form isn't game-breaking either:

1) Doesn't understand the game mechanics and the circumvention of game mechanics that permanently-maintainable SF is and represents

2) Isn't capable of being educated about what is and isn't game-breaking

3) Has ulterior motives for continuing to abuse Perma-SF, most likely a "get rich quick and f*** anyone who says otherwise or gets in my way" point of view

Shadow Form isn't the only skill that presents problems like this. Ursan got rolled by the nerf-bat for similar reasons. PvE skills in general are all over-powered, which is why we have a limit of 3 per player bar and none on Hero bars. Shadow Form is the main skill that causes this type of damage in GW at the current moment (and has been for a while now), which is why there are people who speak out against it being permanently maintainable.

Jeydra · Aug 09, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Dont be terrible and h/h it? Its not that difficult.

Nothing stopping you from H/H'ing it, of course - but that's not what I was driving at. It's just wrong to say you can be unaffected by Shadow Form existing, because it is. Where are you going to get other players happy to do Thommis the normal way instead of simply clearing it via VSF, I don't know.